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Poll: Free Palestine (13 member(s) have cast votes)

What is your position in relation to the Palestinian Liberation Movement?

  1. Support (5 votes [38.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

  2. Neutral (5 votes [38.46%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

  3. Against (3 votes [23.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

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#41 The Watcher

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:54 PM

Ishmael's mother Hagar was an ancient Egyptian...was she not?


Yes


The Ancient Israelites were a people who may have been the Underdogs of the Near East. Some here and there...like many other nations. You win and lose some.


They dominated for a time and then they were dominated. They lived by teh sword and they died by the sword.


That's a very interesting point....how did Jews do well under Muslim rule but not Christian rule? That mind boggles me


Muslims considered Jews (and Christians) as people of the book...religious kin so to speak. Christians considered Jews as the killers of Jesus and therefore evil.


Depends? Why?


The ancient Israelites (not to be confused with todays Israelis) were not native to the region but foreign conquerors. Todays Israelis for the most part are also not native to the region. I have no proof but I suspect history will end up repeat itself in that region.

#42 DreamWeaver1337

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

The ancient Israelites (not to be confused with todays Israelis) were not native to the region but foreign conquerors. Todays Israelis for the most part are also not native to the region. I have no proof but I suspect history will end up repeat itself in that region.


What? Most Israelis today are Jewish.....only a small portion are Arab. But anyway most Israelis are Jewish...

#43 The Watcher

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:01 AM

What? Most Israelis today are Jewish.....


The only reason most Israelis are jewish is because of the aliyah and the vast numbers of Ashkenazi Jews (especially the great number of Russian non-religious immigrants) that immigrated into the area from Europe.


only a small portion are Arab.


Where do you get your facts from? Israeli citizens are over 20% Arab (Muslim or Christian). By comparison the US is only 13% black, 16% latino/hispanic and 5% Asian.


But anyway most Israelis are Jewish...


Keep in mind that the birthrate of Israeli jews has been falling for decades while the Arab birthrate is soaring. At the current rates of growth, Jews will cease to be the majority in less than 50 years. Good luck trying to maintain a Jewish state in a democratic country when most of the citizens are not Jewish.

What can Israel do in order to maintain their identity? I have come up with 4 scenarios:

Scenario 1: In order to maintain its Jewish nature, Israel strips its Arabs citizens of their citizenship and deports them to Palestinian controlled areas, Afrikaner style. Unfortunately for Israel this is no longer the 18th or 19th century. The world will no longer tolerate mass expulsions of people from their land. Nor will the world tolerate another 50 years of bantustans. Israel will be forced to accept a free unfettered Palestinian state or they will have to absorb the Palestinians and that will be the end of the Jewish nature of Israel. This scenario didn't work out for South Africa and it will not work out for Israel;



Scenario 2: Israel continues to fight against the establishment of a Palestinian state. In time Israeli Arabs become the majority population. As a democratic country, Israel will change as its citizens pass and/or alter pro-Jewish laws. Then to add insult to injury, they will amend the Law of Return and offer their Palestinian Arabs brothers citizenship. Israel will never have a jewish majority again;



Scenario 3: Israel allows a demilitarized Palestinian state that is not in control of its borders, its ports, the aquifers or any other natural resource the Israelis covet. In time Israeli Arabs become the majority population. As a democratic country, Israel will change as its citizens pass and/or alter pro-Jewish laws. Then to add insult to injury, they will amend the Law of Return and offer their Palestinian Arabs brothers citizenship. Israel will never have a jewish majority again (sounds familiar?);



Scenario 4: Israel will prop up and help establish a strong and vibrant Palestinian state instead of a demilitarized one that is resource poor and economically hobbled. Arab israelis will flock to build their the new state, renounce their israeli citizenship and everyone wil live happily ever after. Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


Edited by The Watcher, 13 December 2012 - 12:05 AM.


#44 SomeAsianDude

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:35 AM



"We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians"
~ Nelson Mandela 1997

Edited by SomeAsianDude, 17 January 2013 - 06:40 AM.

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#45 DreamWeaver1337

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBmXmeS8RmM

"We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians"
~ Nelson Mandela 1997


Nelson Mandela said that? You sure that's right?

Sorry, but a lot of media outlets aren't fully accurate or trustworthy. There are both sides to a story. Palestinians have one and so do Israelis.

#46 SassyViet

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:50 AM

The land in dispute was indeed jurisdicated to be a separate body under United Nation governance after after WW 2, Israel agreed to it. The Palestinina didn't. So it seems to me, even when the Jews wanted it to be theirs, they were willing to compromise and share.

What's at the heart of this conflict is the deep-seated hatred for Isreal and anything outside of Islam by the Arab world. So, sharing it was not enough as it has always been since antiquity, they want it all for themselves. Not b/c they don't have the land but b/c they're so filled with hatred that they want Isreal to cease to exist. It's the camel's nose in the tent story. The Palestinian are poor not b/c of Isreal, it's b/c they have large families with multiple wives and children they are not able to feed. In addtion, instead of focusing their resources on educating the population and growing their economy, they are so consumed with their crusdade that what little they have goes into buying arms to launch attacks albeit unsuccessful thus far and cry woe is me when the Isralites kick their butts. They strap weapons to their 11 yo's but scream bloody murder when they ended up being killed by Isreal?

Their Arab brothers are throwing oil into the fire. They also have the same goal. If they want peace, how about giving some of their vast land to their poor Palestinian brothers.
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#47 MrCritique

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

I may be ignorant of this but I thought after the Oslo Agreement "The Two States" solution has been widely accepted by both sides and the international community. The main problem at hand right now is not as much as what but as to how (to proceed to implement this).

Hence these "free Palestine" slogans may seem a bit dated.

#48 The Watcher

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:35 PM

Nelson Mandela said that? You sure that's right?

Sorry, but a lot of media outlets aren't fully accurate or trustworthy. There are both sides to a story. Palestinians have one and so do Israelis.


Much to the consternation of Israel, Mandela has drawn parallels between the South African struggle with the Palestinian struggle for years. This long held and commonly known view that has not changed over the years. Perhaps if you had studied the conflict from impartial sources you might have been aware of this.

The land in dispute was indeed jurisdicated to be a separate body under United Nation governance after after WW 2, Israel agreed to it. The Palestinina didn't. So it seems to me, even when the Jews wanted it to be theirs, they were willing to compromise and share. What's at the heart of this conflict is the deep-seated hatred for Isreal and anything outside of Islam by the Arab world. So, sharing it was not enough as it has always been since antiquity, they want it all for themselves. Not b/c they don't have the land but b/c they're so filled with hatred that they want Isreal to cease to exist. It's the camel's nose in the tent story. The Palestinian are poor not b/c of Isreal, it's b/c they have large families with multiple wives and children they are not able to feed. In addtion, instead of focusing their resources on educating the population and growing their economy, they are so consumed with their crusdade that what little they have goes into buying arms to launch attacks albeit unsuccessful thus far and cry woe is me when the Isralites kick their butts. They strap weapons to their 11 yo's but scream bloody murder when they ended up being killed by Isreal? Their Arab brothers are throwing oil into the fire. They also have the same goal. If they want peace, how about giving some of their vast land to their poor Palestinian brothers.



"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them. Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, its true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis ... but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country."

~ David Ben-Gurion

Edited by The Watcher, 26 January 2013 - 01:48 PM.

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#49 SomeAsianDude

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 03:54 AM

Nelson Mandela said that? You sure that's right?

Sorry, but a lot of media outlets aren't fully accurate or trustworthy. There are both sides to a story. Palestinians have one and so do Israelis.


Sorry, but you seem to be too dumb in general to read things in between the lines... so I would advise you to stop taking things at face value and actually analyze the situation. Otherwise your arguments are more or less a joke to consider.

The land in dispute was indeed jurisdicated to be a separate body under United Nation governance after after WW 2, Israel agreed to it. The Palestinina didn't. So it seems to me, even when the Jews wanted it to be theirs, they were willing to compromise and share.


Lol, the Israelis compromising and sharing? Really? Do you know what is the first thing the Israelis did when they established themselves in the region? They went out and conquered nearly 80% of the country from the Palestinians. Compromising and sharing my ass.

Posted Image


Their Arab brothers are throwing oil into the fire. They also have the same goal. If they want peace, how about giving some of their vast land to their poor Palestinian brothers.


They already have. Millions of Palestinian refugees are living under these countries. Many still have their original keys to their house in Palestine.

I may be ignorant of this but I thought after the Oslo Agreement "The Two States" solution has been widely accepted by both sides and the international community. The main problem at hand right now is not as much as what but as to how (to proceed to implement this).

Hence these "free Palestine" slogans may seem a bit dated.


The problem is that by the time of the Oslo Agreement, the Israelis already had huge investments in the West Bank area along with a number of Israeli settlements scattered across important zones within the area. They knew for certain that a two state solution was impossible to implement with that amount of penetration, hence why the Israelis refused to negotiate with the Palestinians before until their objective of making sure that the conquest of the West Bank was irreversible was complete. Thus the phrase "Free Palestine" is in accordance to Israel's colonization/occupation of the West Bank.

Edited by SomeAsianDude, 19 January 2013 - 03:56 AM.

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#50 mlint007

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

As much as it pains me, i had to give you props for this because I never knew Palestine dominated this region before. I always thought it was Israel's land initially and it was stolen from them. I didn't know it was Palestine's land first and Israel came and said it was there's.

My only reference on the situation is from the Bible (Shuddup SomeADude!) and I'm not saying the Bible is so truthful but as the story goes the Israelis traveled and were nomadic for many years before they finally settled. I could've sworn they were there first and then the Romans took the land from them and gave it to the Palestine's...

Oh well, I say let them duke it out like the old days, have a war, no one intervenes and whoever wins, wins the land....

#51 SassyViet

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them. Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, its true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis ... but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country."


I'm not referring to the belief that God has promised it to the Isrealites. That claim is rather magical and has no basis in reality so it wouldn't make a good argument. Althought if they had evidence of that it would be. What is true is that this land was occipied by both predecessors of Isrealites and Arabs since antiquity and both sides magnified their importance in order to claim ownership. In modern history Isrealites made up the majority of the population in this area hence the predominance of Jewish holy sites. In agreement with the plan to divide the area in dispute under united nation control. However, the Arabs at that time under Jordanian rule (who had no business taking over that area) has descrated Jewish holy sites and mistreated the Jews leading up to Isreal's backlash and taking the area under Isreal. Unlike the Jordanian arabs Isreal did not do the same to Muslim holy sites and even allowed them there. Most Palesnians themselves prefer to be Isrealites. Why b/c they're treated with a government that respect human rights and tolerant of differences, and better standard of living.

So the accusation that Isreal took their land was irresponsible. If they had been respectable human beings they would not have trampled it with their nastiness and hatred. What Isreal didn't stand for was their barbaric and intolerant treatment of the Jewish culture that was already there so they took it over and treated the enemy not with inhumane vengence but with respect. The Palestinian government lost its' right to that land (which was predominantly Jewish at one point) when it dicided to persecute the Jews.

#52 The Watcher

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:13 AM

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them. Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, its true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis ... but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country."


fyi: This is a quote from David Ben-Gurion. He was one of Israel's founding fathers and the first Prime Minister


I'm not referring to the belief that God has promised it to the Isrealites. That claim is rather magical and has no basis in reality so it wouldn't make a good argument. Althought if they had evidence of that it would be. What is true is that this land was occipied by both predecessors of Isrealites and Arabs since antiquity and both sides magnified their importance in order to claim ownership.


True. The truth is no one own the land, we are all just tenants.


In modern history Isrealites made up the majority of the population in this area hence the predominance of Jewish holy sites.


False. Even with the massive influx of Europeans, Jews are still outnumbered in the region. The jewish Holy sites have nothing to do with the population size. The ancient israelites inhabited the land for a relatively short period of time while Arabs have resided in the area for close to 1,500 years.


In agreement with the plan to divide the area in dispute under united nation control.


Thanks to collective European guilt, the partition plan gave the majority of the land to the minority of the population.


However, the Arabs at that time under Jordanian rule (who had no business taking over that area) has descrated Jewish holy sites and mistreated the Jews leading up to Isreal's backlash and taking the area under Isreal.


Somewhat true. Jordan controlled Jerusalem for close to 20 years.


Unlike the Jordanian arabs Isreal did not do the same to Muslim holy sites and even allowed them there.


Allowed them? The "sites" are ancient - they have been there


Most Palesnians themselves prefer to be Isrealites. Why b/c they're treated with a government that respect human rights and tolerant of differences, and better standard of living.


False. Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens. A recent poll indicates that a majority of Israeli Jews believe that the Jewish State practises "apartheid" against Palestinians, with many openly supporting discriminatory policies against the country's Arab citizens.

A third of respondents believe that Israel's Arab citizens should be denied the vote, while almost half – 47 per cent – would like to see them stripped of their citizenship rights and placed under Palestinian Authority control, according to Israel's liberal Haaretz newspaper, which published the poll's findings yesterday.



So the accusation that Isreal took their land was irresponsible.


It is true. Israel took and continues to take land. Then contrary to the Geneva Conventions, they move private citizens onto confiscated lands. When UN tries to rule against them, the US nullifies the vote because of its seat on the UN Security Council. This is how Israel did (and continue to do) it:
  • Military confiscates privately owned land, supposedly for government use, state security or something like that
  • Land is then transferred to the ILA (Israel Land Administration)
  • After a period of time, ILA issues tenders for housing projects and the like on the confiscated land through the JNF (Jewish National Fund).
  • ILA determines they must build bypass roads to service these new communities and contacts the army.
  • See step 1

If they had been respectable human beings they would not have trampled it with their nastiness and hatred.


If that was the case, why didn't the UN give Germany to the Jews? What happened to the Jews in Palestine pales by magnitudes compared to what happened to them in Germany


What Isreal didn't stand for was their barbaric and intolerant treatment of the Jewish culture that was already there so they took it over and treated the enemy not with inhumane vengence but with respect. The Palestinian government lost its' right to that land (which was predominantly Jewish at one point) when it decided to persecute the Jews.


Israel defenders like to go on about all of the atrocities they suffered at the hands of muslims but the reality has been quite different. It was not the muslims that kicked the jews out of Israel of old, it was the muslims who took back Jerusalem and allowed them to return.
It was not the muslims who persecuted the jews in Spain but upon Moorish conquest they protected them.
It was not the muslims who slaughtered jews in Europe during WWII


Historically speaking, Jews have prospered in Arab dominated lands and suffered under European lands. The Crusaders slaughtered the Jews while the Arabs saved them, allowed them to worship as they chose. In Spain, Jews lived in relative peace and property but once the Moors were ejected, the Jews again were slaughtered by the Inquisition.

I leave with these series of pictures of 2 women taken over the course of almost 40 years still protesting the same cause

Posted Image

Ghada Karmi and Ellen Siegel in 1973, 1992 and 2011

Edited by The Watcher, 23 January 2013 - 06:20 AM.

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#53 SassyViet

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:20 AM

To the watcher,

The Arabs quest at destroying Isreal and the Western world is real, the Palestininian conflict is an excuse to escalate the war.

Maybe you should review how long the Isrealites were in the region. YOu can't say one group was there longer than the other. The area went through long history with different waves of peoples since the area was first populated.

Contrary to what you said, Isrealites were not the minority.

I just have a hard time sympathizing with a culture that desecrates women, gays, and anyone who don't agree with their (very intolerant) way of life.

#54 Kamikaze 738

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:07 AM

The Arabs quest at destroying Isreal and the Western world is real, the Palestininian conflict is an excuse to escalate the war.


Wow, look at you...... so eager to spread the mainstream propaganda lie. Im always surprise about how people take these kind of info without even thinking of the logic of what they are talking about seriously. As any sensible or rational person can deduce that such a feat is impossible to obtain, thus it is by a high factor that such policy is considered ludicrous by both western and islamic policymakers. I have no idea why people like you fall into such an obvious propaganda trap.

I just have a hard time sympathizing with a culture that desecrates women, gays, and anyone who don't agree with their (very intolerant) way of life.


REALLY?!!! YOU THINK THIS ALL THERE IS TO ISLAMIC CULTURE?!?? Desecrating women, gays, and etc.... jesus christ man, why do people have to be so f**k*ng heartless. What about other aspects of islamic culture, the arts, the history, the music... I mean WTF! Do those things not matter? Why do you have to be such a bigot. Why can't you try to understand their culture instead of criticizing outright using western interpretations? I better stop reading your posts as you are starting to really tick me off.
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#55 The Watcher

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

To the watcher,

The Arabs quest at destroying Isreal and the Western world is real, the Palestininian conflict is an excuse to escalate the war.


Is that the Israelis' excuse for treating the Palestinians like animals? Aparthied like treatment with different sets of laws for different people?


Maybe you should review how long the Isrealites were in the region. YOu can't say one group was there longer than the other. The area went through long history with different waves of peoples since the area was first populated.


Israelites are not Israelis. Arabs have been in the region since at least 600 AD which works out to be close to 1400 years. That's a long time. Jewish presence while consistent was minor.


Contrary to what you said, Isrealites were not the minority.


Israelites are dead. Current Israelis (the majority of which are Ashkazian of European lineage) are obviously the majority in israel proper but even then Arabs are 20% of the population. If current demographic trends hold true, Arab Israelis will outnumber Jewish ones in less than 40 years. If Israel annexes Palestine, Jews will instantly become the minority.


I just have a hard time sympathizing with a culture that desecrates women, gays, and anyone who don't agree with their (very intolerant) way of life.



I sure hope you aren't a conservative Republican

Posted Image

Edited by The Watcher, 25 January 2013 - 09:59 PM.

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#56 SassyViet

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

haha, the Isrealites will be outnumbered for sure...that's b/c the Palestinians have multiple wives, know nothing of birth control, and propagate like flies. Yes, that is the current demographic trends. At the time of the UN partition, the majority of people in the region were Jews.

Isrealites were ancestors of the Jews.

I think you said "The Arabs were there starting in 600 AD". The Isrealites were there since 1000 BC. The Arabs seized control of the area and from that point on, Arab immigration and occupation of the area started to take root given rise to modern day Palestinian people.

I'm a moderate with common sense. I don't sell into this culture of "popular non-conformist". No matter how intolerant you may blame the Republicans, our American conservatives have nothing on human rights violation like the Muslim Arabs. To compare the two is just ludicrous.

Regardless I thought the mainstream propaganda is on the side of the Palestinians, not the Jews.

Just curious, why are you so hell-bent on this free-Palestinian movement. Maybe you should go over there and show them some real support.

#57 SomeAsianDude

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

My only reference on the situation is from the Bible (Shuddup SomeADude!) and I'm not saying the Bible is so truthful but as the story goes the Israelis traveled and were nomadic for many years before they finally settled. I could've sworn they were there first and then the Romans took the land from them and gave it to the Palestine's...


Man... didn't you once said history was one of your favorite subjects or something before? How could you be so off like this... I'll just say that the Romans took the land from the Greeks, not from the Jews, who in turn took the land from the Persians, who in turn took the land from the Babylonians, and so on. The Jews lost their homeland a long time ago but the Romans never gave the land to the Palestinians...

Oh well, I say let them duke it out like the old days, have a war, no one intervenes and whoever wins, wins the land....


You know that is not even considered a remotely realistic option in this time and age right?

I'm a moderate with common sense. I don't sell into this culture of "popular non-conformist". No matter how intolerant you may blame the Republicans, our American conservatives have nothing on human rights violation like the Muslim Arabs. To compare the two is just ludicrous.


This is so ridiculous that it is laughable, but your right. Trying to compare American to Arab human rights violation is ludicrous because the Arabs have nothing... nothing that even amounts to the massive systemic genocide of millions of Native Americans that has been conducted by the Americans for over hundreds of years. Good job on selling your common sense to us.

Regardless I thought the mainstream propaganda is on the side of the Palestinians, not the Jews.


If only I thought this was sarcasm... alas it is not, how disappointing.

Edited by SomeAsianDude, 26 January 2013 - 12:00 PM.


#58 The Watcher

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

haha, the Isrealites will be outnumbered for sure...that's b/c the Palestinians have multiple wives, know nothing of birth control, and propagate like flies.



Good muslims don't believe in birth control. Neither do Orthodox Jews nor good Catholics.

"Propogate like flies." People used to say the same about Catholics. Heck they currently they say the same about Latinos (overwhelmingly Catholic), specifically Central Americans like Mexicans. It is a disgusting characterization. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Yes, that is the current demographic trends. At the time of the UN partition, the majority of people in the region were Jews.


Incorrect. Jews were the minority population, with most of them being relatively recent immigrants. The Brits ruled Palestine from about 1920 til the partition. Once thing about the Brits, they are orderly.
The first British Census in Palestine in 1922 shows population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian.
The second British Census in 1931 shows total population of 1,035,154 with 73.4% Muslim, 16.9% Jewish and 8.6% Christian. These are readily available facts that anyone can find


Isrealites were ancestors of the Jews.


Spiritual? Yes. Actual? Not so much.


I think you said "The Arabs were there starting in 600 AD". The Isrealites were there since 1000 BC. The Arabs seized control of the area and from that point on, Arab immigration and occupation of the area started to take root given rise to modern day Palestinian people.


Rewrite history much? Because I don't feel like researching dates for now I will agree with your supposition but be assured I will double check that later. Matter of fact I'll even give you 1200 BC as long as you remember that they too were not indigenous to the land of Canaan. The problem is the Israelites kept getting their asses kicked throughout history.

Assyria conquered Israel somewhere around 700 BC while Judah was conquered by the Babylonians under King Nebuchadnezzar around close to 600 BC. They also destroyed the First Temple. Rome conquered Judea in 64 BC, destroyed the Second Temple in 70 AD and banished the Jews from Jerusalem. They were only allowed back in to live and worship in 600-something-AD after the Arabs seized control. The Crusaders seized control around 1100 AD and slaughtered the jews found there but they were saved by Saladin who again allowed them to live in peace once he re-conquered the area

If the facts don't suit your personal narrative do you just make sh*t up? Because it appears that is exactly what you do


I'm a moderate with common sense. I don't sell into this culture of "popular non-conformist". No matter how intolerant you may blame the Republicans, our American conservatives have nothing on human rights violation like the Muslim Arabs. To compare the two is just ludicrous.


You convict modern day American conservatives with your own words: I just have a hard time sympathizing with a culture that desecrates women, gays, and anyone who don't agree with their (very intolerant) way of life.

This is exactly what the far right does. The Tea Party would turn America into a Christian version of the Taliban if they had their say. Luckily people are actually opening their ears and their eyes to the crap these people are spewing. Hell, just this past week a state congresswoman from New Mexico introduced a law that would criminalize victims of rape. This law stated that if a pregnancy occured in case of rape and the woman decided to abort the foul seed, she would be charged with destruction of evidence, a 3rd degree felony. Yes this was introduced in 2013. They are on the losing side of the issues and ultimately will be on the losing side of history.


Regardless I thought the mainstream propaganda is on the side of the Palestinians, not the Jews.


If israel had been created about 100 years earlier, the Palestinans would have been S.O.L. As it is, this conflict has been going on the better part of the 20th century, a century which was very well documented. History is not propaganda. You might not like how events played out but history doesn't care too much about your personal feelings.


Just curious, why are you so hell-bent on this free-Palestinian movement. Maybe you should go over there and show them some real support.


There are many ways to show support. One of my ways is to debate people and expose the truth to those who do not know any better. I believed in a free South Africa but have never went there. I believe that US embargo of Cuba has gone on far too long but I have not gone there. I believe that muslims were treated horribly in Bosnia but I never went there. Shoot me :shug:

Edited by The Watcher, 26 January 2013 - 09:04 PM.

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#59 mlint007

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:46 PM

Man... didn't you once said history was one of your favorite subjects or something before? How could you be so off like this... I'll just say that the Romans took the land from the Greeks, not from the Jews, who in turn took the land from the Persians, who in turn took the land from the Babylonians, and so on. The Jews lost their homeland a long time ago but the Romans never gave the land to the Palestinians...


....since I like you I won't tell you, you can eat my oochie coochie and yes I told you History is mah favorite subject but sawry I didn't get around to learning about this amongst ALL the other historical stories I like to read. My bad....
...and I told you that in PM...Big HEAD! I mean damn, I didn't tell everyone you have two left titties!!!!

You know that is not even considered a remotely realistic option in this time and age right?


Posted Image

It was just a thought Posted Image
I still love ya' though

#60 SassyViet

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:41 PM

immigration, exploration, and conquest, it's part of humankind's history including the Arab's. If anything they were the aggressor in a large part of history including the invasion of the land in contention.

So, to go back and forth about who was the worst agressor is pointless. And to now throwing stones on the Catholics, convervative, Tea party, the British forefathers of the Americans too fall into that category.

All I can say is I'm thankful I live in this country where as a woman, I had one of the best education in the world, at least in equal footing to any man. I don't have to stage a international protest in order to drive, or risk the death sentence when I don't follow some minor law.

I don't condemn the conservative church members who were instrumental in helping my family in our first days in this country.

Even when the US has a lot of faults (as with any other govt in the world), I still think it's still one of the best. I'm sure you've heard of the saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you".

#61 The Watcher

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:36 AM

immigration, exploration, and conquest, it's part of humankind's history including the Arab's. If anything they were the aggressor in a large part of history including the invasion of the land in contention.


If you look at the history of the area you would find that assertion is patently false. What you will find different about Arab conquest is that it brought peace and prosperity to the region, 20th century aside, gave the Jews much needed relief as well as protection, more than they have ever had throughout history. That is the true history of the region


So, to go back and forth about who was the worst agressor is pointless.


You cannot understand a conflict if you do not go to the root of the problem. And the root of the problem in Israel/Palestine can be distilled ti these 3 issues: Racism, rampant and virulent European xenophobia & colonialism.

If it weren't for European historical xenophobia, the Jews would not have been persecuted in Europe.
If it weren't for racism, Jews would not have been slaughtered to the point that they had to flee Europe for Palestine or the Americas.
And if it weren't for colonialism, Israel of today would never have been established. The audacity of the Europeans to think that they could just settle a group of people on land that was already inhabited is just crazy. Besides Palestine, Uganda was a leading option as well as the a state in the USSR and Guyana Posted Image (known then as British Guinana) in South America. None of these lands, however, was uninhabited so conflict would have been inevitable.


And to now throwing stones on the Catholics, convervative, Tea party, the British forefathers of the Americans too fall into that category.


No one threw stones at Catholics, conservatives, the Tea Party or the Brits. You characterized/mischaracterized an entire culture and then (obviously) were embarrassed when I drew strong parallels with institutions that you hold near and dear. I understand that when one's hypocrisies are brought to light it can be an embarrasing moment. Think of it as a learning experience. Would you rather have learned this lesson over the web by some anonymous dude called The Watcher or publicy, say at a dinner party, in front of your peers?


All I can say is I'm thankful I live in this country where as a woman, I had one of the best education in the world, at least in equal footing to any man. I don't have to stage a international protest in order to drive, or risk the death sentence when I don't follow some minor law.


Here here!!! But I think you are referencing Saudi Arabia (driving) or perhaps Yemen, Afghanistan, rural Pakistan or Nigeria with regards to death sentence for violating a minor law. Please stay on topic but feel free to start a thread about conterproductive practices in some muslim countries.


I don't condemn the conservative church members who were instrumental in helping my family in our first days in this country.


Are good people who turn a blind eye and/or tacitly accept abhorrent practices really so good? If you cannot call a spade a spade you will not maintain any credibility


Even when the US has a lot of faults (as with any other govt in the world), I still think it's still one of the best. I'm sure you've heard of the saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you".


No objections from me. I thought we were talking about Israel & Palestine and not the US.

#62 SassyViet

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

I'm embarassed for sure, not for net getting the facts straight but for letting your rambling drivels get me off track.

Your views are interesting as in different interesting not as in enlightening interesting. If I debate with people the way you do, I just get more and more mired in my own pseudo-sophistication. In the end, I'm none the better.

The point is this, you're no middle-east scholar (neither am I) but instead of dissecting every point you made, I encourage you to go back and read some books on the subject matter. You kept saying the same thing over and over without adding convincing historical facts (note here facts, not opinions) to better explain your view point.

Your drawing parallels was not clever, as any semi-educated person can see the history of humankind is full of those kinds of parallel. You presented half-truth to support your position and drag on the argument to the point of absurdity.

In life pick your battles. I have better things to argue about than hit my head against the wall arguing with passionate albeit not so well-informed and illogical person.

#63 SomeAsianDude

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

....since I like you I won't tell you, you can eat my oochie coochie and yes I told you History is mah favorite subject but sawry I didn't get around to learning about this amongst ALL the other historical stories I like to read. My bad....
...and I told you that in PM...Big HEAD! I mean damn, I didn't tell everyone you have two left titties!!!!


Ahaha, its alright. All part of the learning process. Everybody starts somewhere I guess. But the problem doesn't go as far back as that so it isn't necessary to really know about the fine details of that particular era. What is important to know about this current conflict lies within the last 150 or so years ago with the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, which with its wide-ranging consequences eventually led to the creation of this conflict that we see today.

It was just a thought


I was being sarcastic.

#64 mlint007

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

^^ All is well. You're still my shukum wookums LOL...I'm just messin with you...

Anyways, a word of advice and this goes to anyone in this forum or thread.
When people don't understand something or are humble enough to admit it and
still try to understand from another perspective, don't bash them or call them names.
Help them understand where you are coming from and let them come to their own
conclusion and if they still don't agree with your viewpoint...it's okay. Life goes on, right?

It comes off as "all knowing" when you bash someone for not having your "level of intelligence"
and I would think we are all here to learn and debate the issues but the bigger purpose
is the sharing of resources and information. I have learned a great deal from everyone
on here but sometimes the tone of the delivery is unsavory.

________________________________________

Regarding the situation, I believe in my case I'm a product of what the media and my
education has taught me. In school we were never taught about this issue and any information
we were ever told/shown was always negative towards the Palestinians. Which I'm pretty sure is because
they are Muslim, I was on another fan board and one of the admins is a Muslim who lives in this
area of the world and I reached out to her regarding her feelings as a citizen and its interesting
how different a person going through it sees things compared to us who are viewing it from the outside
looking in. I will just say what we think a person or people are feeling or want sometimes is not the
case at all.

#65 The Watcher

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:52 AM

I'm embarassed for sure, not for net getting the facts straight but for letting your rambling drivels get me off track.

Your views are interesting as in different interesting not as in enlightening interesting. If I debate with people the way you do, I just get more and more mired in my own pseudo-sophistication. In the end, I'm none the better.

The point is this, you're no middle-east scholar (neither am I) but instead of dissecting every point you made, I encourage you to go back and read some books on the subject matter. You kept saying the same thing over and over without adding convincing historical facts (note here facts, not opinions) to better explain your view point.

Your drawing parallels was not clever, as any semi-educated person can see the history of humankind is full of those kinds of parallel. You presented half-truth to support your position and drag on the argument to the point of absurdity.

In life pick your battles. I have better things to argue about than hit my head against the wall arguing with passionate albeit not so well-informed and illogical person.



I may not be a historian (I'm a computer weenie) but I have devoted a good amount of my personal time researching the history of this conflict as well as the history of the area. I am a debater, I always have been and always will be. It gives me personal satisfaction to set the record straight. Am I arrogant? Perhaps a touch. When I see an glaring mistake on this subject I will call a person out on it everytime. And you made some very glaring errors when relating the history of Palestine. I understand that you feel passionate about this subject but I believe you let your passion blind you to reason. Let me give you an example:

You stated "At the time of the UN partition, the majority of people in the region were Jews."

This a link to the 1922 census of Palestine conducted by the British in 1922. It shows the overwhelming population as being Arab

These 3 links are for the 1931 census also show an overwhelming number of Arabs vs Jews.
The MacDonald White Paper of 1939 limited Jewish immigration into Palestine to 75,000 over the next 5 years and any changes were subject to the Arab majority agreement. Indeed there was plenty illegal immigration and that is what stirred the local populace up. In 1939 the Jewish population had yet to reach even 1/3 of the total population of Palestine. Here is an excerpt of the section on immigration

'His Majesty's Government do not [..] find anything in the Mandate or in subsequent Statements of Policy to support the view that the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine cannot be effected unless immigration is allowed to continue indefinitely. If immigration has an adverse effect on the economic position in the country, it should clearly be restricted; and equally, if it has a seriously damaging effect on the political position in the country, that is a factor that should not be ignored. Although it is not difficult to contend that the large number of Jewish immigrants who have been admitted so far have been absorbed economically, the fear of the Arabs that this influx will continue indefinitely until the Jewish population is in a position to dominate them has produced consequences which are extremely grave for Jews and Arabs alike and for the peace and prosperity of Palestine. The lamentable disturbances of the past three years are only the latest and most sustained manifestation of this intense Arab apprehension [...] it cannot be denied that fear of indefinite Jewish immigration is widespread amongst the Arab population and that this fear has made possible disturbances which have given a serious setback to economic progress, depleted the Palestine exchequer, rendered life and property insecure, and produced a bitterness between the Arab and Jewish populations which is deplorable between citizens of the same country.If in these circumstances immigration is continued up to the economic absorptive capacity of the country, regardless of all other considerations, a fatal enmity between the two peoples will be perpetuated, and the situation in Palestine may become a permanent source of friction amongst all peoples in the Near and Middle East.'
"Jewish immigration during the next five years will be at a rate which, if economic absorptive capacity permits, will bring the Jewish population up to approximately one third of the total population of the country. Taking into account the expected natural increase of the Arab and Jewish populations, and the number of illegal Jewish immigrants now in the country, this would allow of the admission, as from the beginning of April this year, of some 75,000 immigrants over the next four years. These immigrants would, subject to the criterion of economic absorptive capacity, be admitted as follows: For each of the next five years a quota of 10,000 Jewish immigrants will be allowed on the understanding that a shortage one year may be added to the quotas for subsequent years, within the five-year period, if economic absorptive capacity permits. In addition, as a contribution towards the solution of the Jewish refugee problem, 25,000 refugees will be admitted as soon as the High Commissioner is satisfied that adequate provision for their maintenance is ensured, special consideration being given to refugee children and dependents. The existing machinery for ascertaining economic absorptive capacity will be retained, and the High Commissioner will have the ultimate responsibility for deciding the limits of economic capacity. Before each periodic decision is taken, Jewish and Arab representatives will be consulted. After the period of five years, no further Jewish immigration will be permitted unless the Arabs of Palestine are prepared to acquiesce in it."


Understand now? The UN gave the majority of the land to (even taking into account the massive amounts of illegal immigration) the minority of the population which, as history has shown, was the breaking point and the genesis of today's conflict. It has nothing to do with biblical enmities, nothing to do with the "backwardness" of Arab culture and everything to do with European imperialism and colonial mentality. This is the point I have been trying to make.

If you can acknowledge that you were mistaken on this particular assumption, will you a least consider at least one of your other assumptions might also be flawed as well?

Edited by The Watcher, 29 January 2013 - 12:09 AM.


#66 The Watcher

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:22 AM

U.N. Panel Says Israeli Settlement Policy Violates Law

By NICK CUMMING-BRUCE and ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: January 31, 2013



Israel has pursued a creeping annexation of the Palestinian territories through the creation of Jewish settlements and committed multiple violations of international law, possibly including war crimes, a United Nations panel said Thursday, calling for an immediate halt to all settlement activity and the withdrawal of all settlers.

Presenting their findings in Geneva after a nearly six-month inquiry for the United Nations Human Rights Council, a panel of three judges, led by Christine Chanet of France, presented its view that Israel’s settlements violated the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit a state from transferring its own civilian population into territory it has occupied.

Asked if Israel’s actions constituted war crimes, Ms. Chanet replied that its offenses fell under Article 8 of the International Criminal Court statute. “Article 8 of the I.C.C. statute is the chapter of war crimes,” she said at a news conference. “That is the answer.”

Israel’s Foreign Ministry quickly dismissed the report as “counterproductive and unfortunate” and said it provided a reminder of the Human Rights Council’s “systematically one-sided and biased approach towards Israel.”

Israel and the United States view the Human Rights Council, which answers to some nondemocratic member states, including Saudi Arabia, China and Cuba, that are themselves often scrutinized for human rights violations, as eager to shine a harsh spotlight on Israeli practices even though it overlooks egregious rights problems elsewhere. Israel has had repeated conflicts with the body and declined to cooperate with the panel’s fact-finding inquiry.

Israel “must cease all settlement activities without preconditions” and start withdrawing all settlers from the occupied territories, the judges said in their report, scheduled to be debated in the rights council in March.

The panel drew on 67 submissions from a cross section of academics, diplomats, Israeli civilian organizations and Palestinians, Ms. Chanet said. Because Israel decided not to cooperate with the investigators, they were unable to visit the West Bank and went instead to the Jordanian capital, Amman, to take testimony.

The council’s decision last March to investigate the effect of Jewish settlements on Palestinian rights prompted Israel to break off cooperation with the council, castigating it as a political platform used “to bash and demonize Israel.” The panel’s report came two days after Israel boycotted a council review of its human rights, becoming the first country to withhold cooperation from a process in which all 193 United Nations member states have previously engaged.

The United States has condemned Israel’s settlement policy as unhelpful and an obstacle to achieving a two-state solution to the Palestinian issue, but it also opposed the creation of the fact-finding mission, saying at the time that it was an example of the council’s bias against Israel, that it did not “advance the cause of peace” and that it would “distract the parties from efforts to resolve the issues that divide them.”

The panel noted that Israel had established about 250 Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem since 1967, with a combined population now estimated at 520,000. It said the settler population was growing much faster than the population of Israel outside the settlements.

The report quotes the Israeli finance minister, Yuval Steinitz, as saying in November that the government had doubled the budget for West Bank settlements “in a low-key way because we didn’t want parties in Israel or abroad to thwart the move.”

These actions fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, the panel said, and if a future Palestinian state ratified the Rome Statute, which created the court, Israel could be called to account for “gross violations of human rights law and serious violations of international humanitarian law.”

The report was welcomed by Palestinian officials and some settlement opponents in Israel. Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the executive committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization, said in a statement that the report documented “illegal Israeli practices without any ambiguity.”

Israeli officials, on the other hand, dismissed the report, saying that the only way to resolve the settlement issue was through direct Israeli-Palestinian negotiations without preconditions.

Yigal Palmor, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said that the council “systematically gives Israel a raw deal” and that the report’s conclusions were predictable. Defending Israel’s decision not to cooperate with the fact-finding mission, Mr. Palmor said, “If the cards are marked, are we expected to play anyway?”

He criticized the report for mentioning Israel’s unilateral evacuation of 21 settlements in Gaza and 4 in the northern West Bank in 2005 “in passing in a few lines, as an insignificant detail, although it was a very major event for Israel.”

“It adds insult to injury,” he said.

The report did not explicitly call for an economic boycott of the settlements or sanctions against Israel, but Israel said its authors deliberately used language that could serve groups calling for such measures.

Frances Raday, an Israeli law professor and a human rights advocate, told Israeli television that the report “gives unusual encouragement to attempts that already exist to boycott settlements and Israeli institutions and Israel as a state because of the settlements.”

According to the report, Palestinians’ rights to freedom of movement and expression and their access to places of worship, education, water, housing and natural resources “are being violated consistently.”
The settlements are maintained through “a system of total segregation” between the settlers, who enjoy a preferential legal status, and the rest of the population, the report concludes. The settlements have resulted in the creation of legal zones in which settlers are subject to Israeli laws but Palestinians come under a patchwork of military orders and laws dating back to Ottoman and British rule, the report says.

In July, an Israeli government-appointed commission of legal experts published a report saying Israel’s presence in the West Bank was not occupation and recommending that the state approve scores of unauthorized Jewish settlement outposts there.

The three-member commission, led by Edmund Levy, a retired Israeli Supreme Court justice, confirmed a position long held by Israel: that the territories are not occupied, since Jordan’s previous hold over them was never internationally recognized, and that their fate must be determined in negotiations. Still, fearing international censure, among other things, Israel’s government has not formally adopted the commission’s conclusions.

Edited by The Watcher, 01 February 2013 - 03:25 AM.


#67 OrangeBlossom55

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

Look Israel belongs to the Jews They have alowd Jordanian arabs/palestinians to live in Israel. They have the same rights the Jews have. The Jews gave up their land hoping for peace only the arabs do not want peace they want the Jews destroyed so they can take over Israel completely. That will not happen. The Jews will soon become involved in a biblcally prophesied war..Psalm 83 war preceded by Isaiah 17,19. At the end of these battles which they win according to biblical prophesy. They will get their land back. The arabs are already free in Israel free to leave or stay but not free to usurp Jewish land given by divine and everlasting covenant by God. If you are a watcher as I am then you will see very soon what I have said will come to pass. It does not matter what man plans because God has the final say.My mom used to say we plan but God unplans.

#68 The Watcher

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

Look Israel belongs to the Jews


Due to changing demographics in 40 odd years Israel will be majority Arab (Muslim & Christian) with Jews being the minority. At that point Israle will no longer "belong" to the Jews unless Israel decides it does not want to stay a democracy, something that the US would have problems with


They have alowd Jordanian arabs/palestinians to live in Israel.


Palestinians have never considered themselves Jordanian and vice versa.


They have the same rights the Jews have.


Arabs citizens of Israel do not have the same rights as Jews and that has been documented numerous times. Palestinian residents of the occupied territories have even less.


The Jews gave up their land hoping for peace only the arabs do not want peace they want the Jews destroyed so they can take over Israel completely. That will not happen.


The Jews gave up what land? They keep taking more and more privately owned Palestinian land


The Jews will soon become involved in a biblcally prophesied war..Psalm 83 war preceded by Isaiah 17,19. At the end of these battles which they win according to biblical prophesy. They will get their land back. The arabs are already free in Israel free to leave or stay but not free to usurp Jewish land given by divine and everlasting covenant by God. If you are a watcher as I am then you will see very soon what I have said will come to pass. It does not matter what man plans because God has the final say.


There are large segments in Israeli society that have been cautioning Israelis about accepting support from evangelical Christians because many of them are...welll...nutcases.


My mom used to say we plan but God unplans.


It really looks like YOU are teh one that is planning right now. Perhaps you should listen to mommy dearest

#69 Kimbern

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 04:20 PM

Neutral 100% on this. Too much blood, finger-pointing and back and forth blame. I think many Chinese people actually support Israel though for whatever reason, I managed to translate some of their forums discussing the Israel-Palestine issue.




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